I have been doing Ettens off and on for a while now mostly quitting in disgust over the lack of freep tactics. Recently the game has shifted in creep favor as they ranked up and lm got nerfed but on the whole, the real reason Laurelin does so poorly is purely down to the players, including myself, because we seem unable to work together as a team.

Well, maybe this alliance will change things. I have typed down some of my thoughts here on how I think a good freep raid should be run.

The current system of a RAT and raid leader all in one just doesn't work. We get kills, but our tactics and strategy leave a lot to be desired.

Leadership
The way current raids are run is I think putting to much work in the hands of one person.

Currently it is often the champs who lead raids BUT who also fight at the same time, have to watch the battle, think up strategy and deal with invites.

We also got problems with formations, ideally we should not just ball up but order ourself to provide maxium protections and maximum DPS on an enemy for as long as possible.

Combat leader, this is the main RAT, the person who the melee follow closely hitting the assigned target.

• In military terms, this would be the NCO, a sergeant, battle hardened and fully aware of his own, his teams and the enemy capabilities.
  
• Leads from the front.
  
• Obedient to the chain of command as he knows that despite all his combat experience his position makes him ill suited to know all that is going on.
  

Officer, this is the person who decides what the NEXT target is, where the Combat group moves, when to advance and when to retreat.

• The luitenant, maybe not as well versed in dealing with the enemy but the one who has the whole picture and not just the fight in his mind.
  
• Leads from the rear where he can keep a clearer picture of just what is going on and afford time to communicate with other groups without standing still in the middle of a fight.
  

Officers aid, this is the person who watches global chat for invites, kicks people who went afk, deals with tells, re-arranges groups for maximum effect.

• This person does all the administration tasks, of great importance but easy to forget in the heat of battle.
  
• Invites new players.
  
• Arranges the groups.
  
• Deals with tells about voice-chat and other such things that the above two don't need to deal with in a battle.
  

In this case there would be two RAT's the combat leader would be the main one, that everyone else follows. the Officer would be picking the next target, talking with the combat leader about its position, possibly asking for CC on it while the main RAT target is being killed. This allows the Combat Leader to focus purely on killing and gives more of a strategic element to what is going to be targetted next and even simpler less time wasted with the Combat Leader not having to seek the next target himself.

Outside combat
The officer assigns three pairs of hunters, one pair stands north, one SE, the other SW of the raid but in healing range OR within the safety of a keep. Change, the positions depending on the area. For instance if waiting in front of TR, One hunter group would be South, one North and one inside TR itself against the east wall. One hunter tracks for orcs, the other for wargs. Tracks are staggered to minimize cooldowns between tracks as the most lethal creep raids always have both types in their raid.

Hunters stay stealthed while tracking.

This is kept running constantly and is put into effect whenever the raid is NOT engaged in combat.

Burglars are positioned in the place most likely to be used in a non-frontal attack.

LM keep anti-stun up on minstrels and themselves whenever ANYTHING is on track.

If enemies are spotted in number the outer line is pulled in (preferably in stealth), any hunters in a keep remain put, tar is deployed at the call of burglars who are now the furthest out.

At no point is anyone mounted unless the group is REALLY going to move out in a few seconds.

In general combat
The worsed kind of tactc I seen used is the charge into the MIDDLE of a creep raid. Anyone who knows the first thing about tactics will know why this is wrong, you are FORCING the enemy to flank you. You suddenly have not only to deal with the enemy in front and to the side as well but if the enemy is even remotely competent to your rear as well. Congrats, you are surrounded.

Being flanked is bad at all times especially when a group counts on very weak units to join in said charge. There is a reason artillery or MASH units don't charge so why do you expect minstrels and hunters to do so?

The charge itself should only be used when an enemy is isolated and alone. No, this is not the stuff you see in the movies but movies have writers to keep the hero alive. You on the other hand depend on a light armour equipped player.

The charge works only if this game enforced different game mechanics, one-on-one fights and blocking bodies. The game does not, so the charge doesn't work.

Any attempt to charge and equal or superior force in this game will quickly become a mess because of the way the game mechanics work. You cannot smash through the enemy lines because you simply walk through them instead so rather then an army smashing a hole into a defensive line you are parachuting right on top of the enemy stronghold. Good luck with that.

So what does work? This game, like it or not is about wolf-pack behavior. Two groups watch each other, trying to remain together while singling out a lone enemy and then pouncing on himself.

Any attempt to change this is ignoring the basic nature of the game. WARhammer might, if the beta videos are any indication favour proper real world fighting with front lines and enemies meeting up for one-on-one fights, but not in PvMP.

Split creeps off, kill them. Don't like ganking? Play a different game.

Being probed
Creeps will at times come in small numbers, either solo players OR part of a trap is impossible to say, even if said creep does not work as part of a trap he might still lead any chaseers into it.

Creeps are NOT engaged at maximum range by hunters. There is no point and it only stops them from attacking.

Stealthed burglars and LM'ers protected by melee in front of them and a bit to the side attempt to root/stun the creeps. If this happens, melee close in, and surround it, when this happens EVERYONE lets loose.

During these times, it might be wise to have the LM on both voice and as an additional RAT so the combat leader can quickly focus on the LM's command on the creep that has been stunned.

Two hunters at least stay back, out of combat preferably and try to keep the tracks up to see if the situation changes.

The Officer keeps track of how far the raid is being pulled, how split up it is becoming, how explosed the minstrels are etc etc.

Under full attack
If numbers are in creep favor, and creeps don't attack if they are not, then you do NOT fight them out in the open. Retreat to a place where people can break line of sight and creeps have no choice but to advance over puddles off tar and traps. A stand-off does not favor freeps at all, the Officer must constantly be on the lookout for ways to get NPC's involved on his side and to give freeps the maximum change of breaking line of sight while giving creeps no place to hide.

Always remember that their is a warg-pack out there.

Attacking an undefended keep
The power of a full freep raid is substantial but time is of the essence. The quickest way so far seems to ride in as one, go halfway up the stairs, and then kill the NPC's that arrive as quickly as possible, then proceeding up and killing them as well.

On the whole, little seems to be gained in TR and LUG by using PvE tactics. Leroy Jenkins should be our example. If possible, use CC on the thougher mobs but a full freep raid should be powerfull enough to take on everything until the tyrant room with ease.

Outside the staircase quickly clear the bosses, guardians on the bigs guys, champs taking care of the elites. As soon as possible the minstrels put in a distract on the tyrant, guardian standing by to deal with agro if it fails, if it fails, pull the orc stun the troll, if it fails, let them storm outside, tyrant resets, kill the adds, then in to kill the tyrant champs on the elites.

Every second counts in an assault like this, the combat leader should be constantly on the move, the officer urging everyone to keep moving.

It can be done, but you need to break through the PvE mindset that you have time for half an hour in the rift for someone to go change the baby. It would be intresting to test just how quickly a keep can be cleared. Should be no more then 5 minutes until the tyrant is engaged.

Attacking a fully defended keep
Don't.

It is the biggest mistake freeps keep making. Creeps rarely do it because they got brains. Running head long into an army of creeps fully charged up and ready to fight with NPC's at your back and the WL rezzing skills is just insanity. Have you ever seen creeps attack a fully defended keep with plenty of minstrels and captains and a burglar pack on the prowl? No, then return the favor.

So DO NOT ATTACK FULLY DEFENDED KEEPS.

These are some of my thoughts of Etten PvP. Especially the bit about charging I know is controversial. I would enjoy a PvP MMORPG that allows for real world tactics but the nature of PvP in Everquest clones just doesn't allow for it. Wishing for the game to be something else then it is seems to be a freep mindset on Laurelin. Perhaps it is the RP nature, creeps certainly don't suffer from it, but then again, you only roll a creep if you are really serious about PvP.

Nice post Enat, great ideas and thinking which most of us would agree with however we are often in Raids which are not at the level of competence and communication to be able to put half of this into practice!

However we will want to try these and other ideas and particluarly the point about the leader not being the main RAT is important and needs to be done more often.

Im with you 100% about staying dismounted outside keeps and keeping up the tracking at all times!

We also need hunters/ burgs to be out scouting in the likely creep paths of movement. Actually id say freeps should be able to kill most creep raids in the open if they have the right composition and or support groups ie 4-6 burg pack.

Sometimes we are hampered by lacking some classes and we have to work round this and we also have to remember that sometimes people like to do something rather than wait and trying to take defended keeps can be fun and can be achieved and is on a daily basis - otherwise keeps wouldnt flip as much as they do though of course it generally works when most enemy forces are diverted elsewhere until much of the keep is cleared.

Very nice post as well, and even if everything can't be done like suggested at all times, at least a few things can...

As a minstrel I particularly liked the "LM keep anti-stun up on minstrels and themselves whenever ANYTHING is on track." part !

A very nice post indeed, especially the part about hunter scouting the area around the raid. That's something I've been thinking of introducing to my raids. Though I've not been able to try it out yet as I rarerly log on when there's no raid going on. You got a clear advantage over your enemy if you know their location.

I disagree with some points, especially the part about charging.

But still, you have some ideas it seems and I'd like to try some.

When would you be free to try to lead?
Give us a date so we can arrange something please.

Its a very nice post. But i agree with Cal on the charging point on open battle. What happens is if u charge, even if its not like in AoC where u cant run through the player. U still create a confusion. U get the creeps to scatter up. They surround you yes, but disorientated (mind spelling) Where we can improve it from this point is the targeting. Charge straight towards backline and and then TURN. Not standing there chopping on the same guys. Use the moment to creat more disorder.

For the part of having leader as RAT id ont mind either. Simply because it makes it easier to controll the fight. But having someone dealing with invites etc is not bad. Coop with other raids is normally not a problem for now as most leader are from this group and can use vent. HAving one guy on voice telling status on minstrels etc is not bad. That is something we can work on.

I did my 15 months in the military and i know most military tactics. But at this point there is no point or there is no chance using anything atm. Simply because the group doesnt work as a unit. I have been waiting for the chance to "show off" many tactical skills. But it has to wait for now.....

The point i want to come to is the point where u dont have to tell things to the different classes. Where everyone is skilled enough and knows where and when to stunn, root, slow. LMS should ofc try to root left or right side. That is for me basic things. But no one one knows it.. So it has to be discussed and talked about. But not in raid, but here.

We tried it two days ago at LUG, defending, and it caused us to split up, but today, tuesday, we did it again BUT the charge remained close to the support group and it worked a lot better, we wiped an equal number creep raid not once, not twice but three times.

We only got wiped once the creeps simply outnumbered us and then only when we became scattered, each one of us fighting three creeps on our own.

So I think the idea works. Melee can still charge but not the entire raid.

IF the entire raid charges it becomes an advance instead, this is fine BUT you have to accept that while you are advancing you loose a LOT of fire power, hunters who can't shoot, lore-masters who can't stun or cure, minstrels who can't heal.

The problem remains thinking of how to deal with superior numbers. After all, the only logical thing to do is NOT FIGHT if the enemy outnumbers you. Because of the game mechanics where no unit is faster then another, creeps don't get a slowdown effect for having 3 raids, hit&run tactics don't work. A pure hunter raid could attempt such a thing.

Ride in, kill a few creeps and DF the hell out of there. But other then that, the obvious strategy for a weaker force of only engaging in Hit&Run attacks just can't be made to work.

We saw that today, we hit them, but when it came time to run we just couldn't disenage as creeps could easily either be ressurected or run in from the graveyard.

I just have to add one thing here. If we start to manage this well against superior numbers. Poor creeps the day we have 2 full raids up and running:)

Would also like to add a little observance i have made;

As a hunter, if you see someone in a creep raid with stars then shoot them a few times, they generally run off and put themselves out of the fight you see stars are generally the signs of a coward who runs when they hit the slightest possibility of dying. 2 stars is not enough of an indicator of this as you can get 2 stars with a few wipes, if they have more than 2 stars then they are most likely very cowardly so hit them with a swifbow, this does a moderate amount of damage and has the same effect as 3 champions shooting them, they then think that they are under attack and run around the corner.

You see creeps are humans too and amongst them there are really selfish ones who dont stick on hobbit (creep rat) so shoot them a bit and they go away. We do not get the renown for them, but they lose a member of their raid due to cowardice which in real terms is just as bad. Obviously you do not want to spend any time away from rat but if you happen to see a name you recognise as a coward a swiftbow or the HS targeting reticule will dissuade them from taking part for a few seconds which may be the time your minstrels need to heal their target.

Wargs are the most prominent exponents of this behaviour mainly because it is in character, they're squishy and they have skills of fleeing very quickly so people enjoy using these skills, so they use them, many a time i've cleared a minstrel of wargs by doing RoT followed by HoA which breaks the root, does a total of around 500 damage each and convinces them that discretion is the better part of valour.

The main reason why I do not like charging is simple: Nobody does it when the leader shouts "CHAAAARGE", many just wait for the other to charge first. Yesterday I found out, that freeps do not even manage to charge together into NPCs when taking Control Points. I saw myself charging alone into a CP yesterday, the others following sloooowly. This was so funny again that I had to laugh.

I think what we have to do is finding simple tactics, a new player in the Ettenmoors can also understand and follow. I hope this alliance will improve Freep-side but I hope it will not lead to a small, exclusive circle of players who invite each others to raids and become frustrated because newbies in the Ettenmoors do not follow their tactics..

I read some things that scares me here...
Person n°1 think like that.
Person n°2 think like this.
Person n°3 think another way.

For example, I see people saying they look for stared creeps when they fight.
That may make them run away, true.
But still you should be on the RAT. è_é

If person n°1 & 2 also do what they think is best... Well, no wonder the freeps are so bad at playing as a group, listening to a leader and following the RATs.

Whatever you think, in a raid, your free to bring ideas, but at the end, I seriously hope you follow the leader's decision and that if he asks to follow the RAT, you don't look for stared creeps anymore!

i always find it funny when the leader shouts charge and i find myself the only one actually doing so, as a hunter lol.

Agreed! When the hunters charge before champs you know the raid is pussies but we need to break the bad habiits