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 My first big raid leading, some thoughts

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PostSubject: My first big raid leading, some thoughts   Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:14 am

On sunday night I took over from Connal leading the main raid. Puntorin from Baruk Khazad arrived with a 15 man strong kin raid and olivic had a 2nd raid growing nicely.

Rather then trying anything complex with 3 raids we attempted a full frontal assault on LUG.

It worked, we rushed through the oil into the main room, pushing hard, killing the NPC's with some minor creep action on the side. pushing up the stairs things started to fall apart a bit. The big problem for freeps is accepting that with 2.5 raids, you don't do PvE style clearing, you RUSH things, then ball up and slap the NPC's silly. No pulling, no piece meal fighting, no CC. Main room bottom, top of stair case, main room top, Tyrant room.

Creeps started to attack in force at this point, the freeps again made a classic mistake, fighting at the top of the stairs, this doesn't work as line-of-sight gets in the way and as we are hunter heavy this means a LOT of DPS goes out the window. It went better when we fought them from the main upper room. Eventually we discovered a 'rythm' of sorts. We push them back, and they take a couple of minutes to recover. Eventually we hit them hard and then all went on the tyrant, my raid mostly hitting the tyrant, Olivic and Puntorin I think keeping the creeps busy. Eventually the tyrant died and we got LUG, no fancy tactics, just hard fighting.

What next? TA of course. Sadly I Olivic had to go AFK so that lost us some leading in the other raid, hard to know if they took part. We seemed to have equal numbers during the fight but at TA, that just ain't enough especially as my raid lacked healing. The minstrels did their best but there is just so much they can do.

The push in went fine, west staircase we started having trouble, lack of discipline, I had to shout to get a distract on the bosses and even then AoE and random shooting got all the bosses on us at once. We had enough to deal with it, but it showed the way of things to come.

In tyrant room, I was hoping for a distract on tyrant, didn't happen, minstrels in my group were on CD, other raid missed and tyrant was pulled, my raid went outside, to hopefully reset it, but we also started to get creeps attacks, it shows how hard it is to communicate properly between raids with just chat.

Creeps really had the numbers now, we also got to split up, TA was a keep to far and we slowly wiped.

We regrouped outside, thinking of what to do next, raids got split up, my fault as scouts were calling for help on flag and so I hoped to get the other raids to TA main gate, my raid to get some creep at LC then a fully joined push again with Olivic now back.

Didn't happen as LUG was under attack.

The next fight was messy, creeps out numbered us and communications broke down between raids, eventually it ended up with some of us pushing to the CG room and holding them of there but getting pushed back constantly, for every one that managed to join us upstairs we lost two to creeps pushes and freeps chasing them to far back.

Eventually sheer numbers overwhelmed us and LUG was lost again.

Lessons learned:


  • We need better communication between raids, voice-chat is essential.
  • Busy classes like lore-master don't have the time to chat, everytime I tried to type a message the battle moved on.
  • Weak classes like minstrels NEED to stick with the group, if somebody is out of range for healing, though shit. Shout out to the raid to escort you, NEVER ever stand alone. We lost 50% of our healing at TA because one minstrel just stood at the rear and was ganked easily by a few reavers.
  • More volunteers for RAT especially, only a handful of players seem willing to do it, and conscripted RAT's just doesn't work out. If you are a champ or guardian (guardians are best since they survive longer) volunteer!
  • Better info on creep numbers rather then scouting TR or LC. Creeps don't really care about keeps except LUG and TA, we basically wasted two scouts in my raid alone. LC we don't need and TR can be checked by any new arrivals before they join the raid. If we attack a keep we know where the creeps are, right behind us.
  • No fighting on the stairs, we fight them at the end of hallways, preferabbly full of tars so they can't hide around the corner to break LoS from hunters and LM'ers and we can.
  • Champions must learn to act like reavers, IN and OUT. Champs don't last long under attack, get to far and you are out of healing range, either end up dead or splitting up the raid.
  • We need to use better RAT, champs on nuisance mode, disrupt their attacks, hunters on RAT.
  • One RAT burning down their healing, one or two lesser RATS for dealing with their attackers, we can't let reavers run free but we don't want to waste to much time on them either. Burn down their rezzing, that means with 6 WL for instance on creep side, we need to kill 30 targets in 5 minutes, to just keep up. Of course, WL'ers don't rez 5 everytime they use their skill, but I seen plenty of times they rez 3 at least. Ideally we also shouldn't allow them to gain access to their corpses.
  • We desperately need more healing on our side. Minstels and captains. At the moment we simply can't keep up with creep healing. This means we got to make the ettens more attractive for minstrels and keep their ass alive but also that minstrels got to learn to let people die if it means leaving the safety of the raid group.
  • Stop worrying about the terminally slow. You either keep up or you die. When we got 2 raids, we really got 1.5 raids because at least a dozen people will be either AFK or lost or running off.
  • Freeps really need to grow a pair and not log off the moment something goes wrong. It makes it really had for new leaders/rat if the moment a mistake is made or the enemy is just to strong half the raid logs off. There are already WAY to few players willing to do anything but follow, doesn't help if people leave because next time that person might just be another follower afraid of being the cause for half the freeps leaving the area.


These are just some observations from sunday's attempt, we did alright, but with a lot of freeps just not getting PvP and creeps having the numbers and healing on their side we either accept our limits or have to shape up.

I am convinced we can do it, but we need better leaders, better communication, less AFK, and more healing.

My own attempt at leading convinced me even more then before that you can't have raids being lead by busy classes like LM, minstrel or champs. Captains or hunters seem the most logical choice as they are not to busy combat wise and can afford to type and think about what to do next. As a LM, I either think strategy or do combat, but both is to much to do either well.
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Connall

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PostSubject: Re: My first big raid leading, some thoughts   Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:47 am

Well congrats for taking on the leadership Enat... If you had stayed later you would have seen the last ditch defence of TR when 20 - 24 freeps were zerged by more than 2 raids of creeps...

You make many sensible observations especially about fighting on the stairs - rediculous if half your DPS is Hunters.

I was bemused to log back in at 11PM UK time and be passed the lead at TR to find Oil up and people fighting outside the keep... We farmed them at the Gate for about half an hour then they finally started to push us into the main hall.

We pegged them back once but couldnt force them out of the gate and they soon surged into the main hall and pushed us to the stairs.

With around 10 wargs hanging about the gate and ground floor it was very tricky to get people back in but we managed it when the Wargs went upstairs however we didnt make myuh headway against the massive creep force camped in the CGs room - I didnt get people assisting the CGs Target often enough but the numbers were probably too many anyway.

Except in TA when you can wipe a much larger force Zergs rule the ettenmoors and with the creep healing advantage we need a bigger Zerg to make headway against oil, spider webs and TA with its extra NPCs.

We need more healing yes, but we also need to get support groups ie burgpacks to nutrilize the Warleader problem.

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PostSubject: Re: My first big raid leading, some thoughts   Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:36 am

Got a question here:

I understand volunteers are needed for RAT'ing. How should a RAT perform? What should be his focus, if any?
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PostSubject: Re: My first big raid leading, some thoughts   Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:54 am

The RAT should be able to know what targets to pick. A warleader above a reaver/blackarrow/warg for instance. A defiler for a warleader etc.
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PostSubject: Re: My first big raid leading, some thoughts   Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:57 am

Or anything Ganking your minstrels!

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PostSubject: Re: My first big raid leading, some thoughts   Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:15 am

Thorarin wrote:
Got a question here:

I understand volunteers are needed for RAT'ing. How should a RAT perform? What should be his focus, if any?

Be aware of the most dangerous target, this is most often the healers, especially the war-leaders. WL'ers got heavy rezzing skills BUT they can be burned down, if they got 6, then can ressurrect each other and up to 4 other creeps that happen to be close every 5 minutes. Kill all 6 within 5 minutes and the creep raid will then quickly start to wipe.

WL'ers can be regonized by the shield they carry, a RAT must be capable of keeping track where they are, which are close enough to the main group to be effectively targetted.

He must also switch targets if his current target is to far, out of line-of-sight of the hunters (very important in keep fights), bubbled up or being the focus of every heal the creeps have.

Ideally, he should also keep the melee in range of the minstrel heals, or at least occasionally being them back for heals.

He also needs to be there, with Book14 there is a RAT bug making people disconnect if RAT's are switched, to avoid this, the RAT best stay the same for a while. Neither can the raid afford to wait for 5 minutes while the RAT catches up.

If you want to be a RAT:

Learn to keep up and be near the front at ALL times no matter what.
Watch the good ones. Connal, Calwen, Erlo are famous for it but there are others, just observe them.
Learn to regonize creeps at sight, you should be at a glance be able to spot what each class looks like.
Learn to target with all available options.
Learn to think ahead, if you current target is about to die, you should already have the next one lined up. The less time there is between RAT's the more people will follow the RAT.
Get used to dying, a LOT. You will be a prime target if you are a melee RAT, simply by being in front and because RAT's make good targets because there is always a moment of confusion if a RAT dies.

Being a RAT ain't all that hard in itself, but you are the one everyone looks at to get the fight going. That can be daunting. Very few seem willing to be on the spot, look at what happens when the call goes out for any volunteer. Sadly not all players have the patience to give a new RAT or leader a chance to learn the trade, they don't volunteer themselves, they just want perfect leaders/rat's to spring up out of nowhere.

Hopefully, part of this alliance thing will be to give new players who want to try a role a change to pick up.

So watch when you see a good RAT and when he leaves, don't be afraid to take over. From what I seen, at least the people here seem willing to follow to give you time to learn.

Perhaps experienced RAT's can put up a guide? I play the wrong classes.
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PostSubject: Re: My first big raid leading, some thoughts   Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:02 pm

Great post Enat, I think you have covered a lot of important things here. One Thing I will also say is ideally a RAT will have Voice and be VOCAL during battle to encourage the raid Psychologically and keep them focused on each new target and whats happening.

I have got to the stage now where my RATing = a running commentary on what im doing and what peoiple should be killing and why so for example....


Connall:

Charge Them! ALL CHARGE my target the Warleader BRETTON! Gank my target, gank Bretton, hes going, finish him, good Job.

Next Warleader Tierant, gank Tierant, all on the Warleader Tierant, hes running away, clobber them, interupt the Warleaders, Addle Fear, Kill Tierant, hiding behind the tree, get on Tierant, finish him, bubbled.

Next target, Get on Kacheeze gank Kacheeze, hes by the Skull, Slow him down hes running, Chase Kacheeze, kill that Cheezy bastard with the shit name, Gank Kacheezy KILL KILL KILL nice...

Next Warleader Xelus, hes on the left past the black arrows run through and they will scatter, keep up, Minstrels keep up...

Aryanis: Wargs on me! Wargs...

Connall: Heal Him! Switch Target! Gurkh. AOE on my target, AOE Root, slowwing shots, fear him Nice! Next Warg Garglash, AOE Root, AOE... Nice Job, This Warg next, kill this shitty blue ring he will die quick... OK.

Reaver My Target, Kill Aswad my target, slow him, Low Cut, Barbed Arrow, Finish Aswad, nice.

Enat: Bluering Reaver on half health my target!

Connall: Name of target?

Enat: Headbanger.

Connall: ok finish Headbanger, nice job, on this one, slow him,nice, back on the Warleaders.

Xelus is close, slow him, nice, fuck him up, gank Xelus, kill him... nice!

Ok kill Bretton, chase him, Slow him, Kill Bretton, nice!

Xelus again, keep up the pressure, were pushing them back, chase Xelus, finish him... good Job!

Theyre wiping, chase them down, No mercy, Kill Spine next, 3 star BA trying to escape, slow him down, nice, Take his Stars, fuck him up, Heartseeker for the Win! my KB thank you!

Kill what you can catch, slow them, root them, can we catch Tierant, nice, slow him, stay on him....



etc etc etc!

This is what i do. Admittedly I am often Leading as well, and if you have lots of people all talking together it could be a problem but i dont think we have that problem yet!

If there are two or more RATs you need to keep reminding your raid ie Ranged on my Target, Hunters shoot my target etc.

Yes we will need to do lessons and yes we will have the patience! dont Worry!

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PostSubject: Re: My first big raid leading, some thoughts   Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:11 pm

Thank you very much, Enat..that brought understanding to this ole dwarf's somewhat bemuddled brain Smile
I clearly see its an important task, and one that should not be taken lightly. In the best interest of any raid I will attend, I should not start volunteering for heavy duty RAT'ing just yet...think I need to learn to walk, before I run Smile

Thanks again, very enlightening!
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PostSubject: Re: My first big raid leading, some thoughts   Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:42 am

The problem with people trying RATing is that it is actually an important job.
You decide who should go down, so you decide of the fight (that's why a lot of leaders also prefer to be RAT themselves).

Ideally, if someone wants to try the job, it should be when the raid have the advantage over the creeps. This way we can afford mistakes being made.
Chosing a wrong target, switching too much, switching not enough, spending too much time selecting a target... all this can get us wipe. Most of the time people are confused about their target, it's better if the RAT itself is not!
But that shouldn't stop people from trying. And I actually encourage raid leaders to be patient toward new RATs and give them instructions instead of shouting at them.
If really the raid is in trouble, then select another RAT, but keep in mind the new tryer for another time when things will be easier and you will have more time to give him/her explanations.

Finally, I don't think a mic is necessary. I mean... we have very good RATs who don't use a mic like Eren. It does help when people are not following the target well. But that shouldn't happen at all, isn't it?
If it does happen, the raid leader can speak for the RAT to pester the raid to follow it.
(This being said, I'm probably one of the most talkative RAT around, just like Connall explained! Very Happy )
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PostSubject: Re: My first big raid leading, some thoughts   Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:06 am

About RAT: There are always newcomers in the raids who do not even know what it is - happened again yesterday. So leaders have to explain it from time to time when the raid members changed. Dont just ask if people know, what RAT is, just explain it.... Problem is, people wont ask or admit if, if they dont know something, just follow the croud.
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PostSubject: Re: My first big raid leading, some thoughts   Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:46 am

[quote="Connall"]
I have got to the stage now where my RATing = a running commentary on what im doing and what peoiple should be killing and why so for example....

Connall:

Charge Them! ALL CHARGE my target the Warleader BRETTON! Gank my target, gank Bretton, hes going, finish him, good Job.

Next Warleader Tierant, gank Tierant, all on the Warleader Tierant, hes running away, clobber them, interupt the Warleaders, Addle Fear, Kill Tierant, hiding behind the tree, get on Tierant, finish him, bubbled.

Next target, Get on Kacheeze gank Kacheeze, hes by the Skull, Slow him down hes running, Chase Kacheeze, kill that Cheezy bastard with the shit name, Gank Kacheezy KILL KILL KILL nice...

............etc etc etc!

quote]


My ten penneth as a n00b freep: Smile

I couldn't see the bit in your commentary where you said "Heal Connall, Heal Connall, Heal Connall, Heal Connall" Smile
It's my lasting memory of my first (and so far, only) big freep raid. You stayed so calm and didn't even raise your voice while I fumbled around trying to find your player icon and click it/heal it before the unthinkable happened Shocked


One thing with your leadership/RAT style, Connall, is that it doesn't take long to recognise your voice if you're commenting as you go, and that helps a lot.

It gets really tricky though, if like me, you have a single monitor, are not playing in windowed mode, and are using TS or Vent instead of in-game chat channel- you can't see who is talking and if "some-one" says "On my target" - it doesn't mean a lot because you have no idea who has just shouted.

So yes, if key raid players like RATs and Leaders could keep the commentary going so we know your voice, and if other players who need help either with a target or for a heal could just include their name, that would help. If some-one says "I need a heal" or "Minstrel follow me" I can't tell who you are because I'm watching health stats while trying to follow the raid and not get left behind and I can't always see which player spoke. scratch
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